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  1. #1

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    Horizons' Vs Mission Space: An old argument with a new perspective

    Horizons' Vs Mission Space: An old argument with a new perspective

    This is going to really upset some people and get alot of flak but.... and I know its an old argument but years later now we can look back on both attractions and have a clearer view.....heres my thoughts

    Horizons frankly was what EPCOT Center was to be all about giving us a taste of what we might expect or dream about life in the future, it was fun and educational with real ideas on solving problems like food and energy, it was something the whole family could enjoy it even covered space not space for air force pilots in nasa but space for families to live in and work in. And no one got sick or killed riding it.

    Mission space is a thrill ride, only a narrow portion of guests can ride it, its very brief, it doesnt really educate you about anything that you are likely to experience in your future, it makes alot of people sick, it has caused the death of two people, one a little boy who met all rider requirements. Is any ride worth the life of one person? No. It is reported to exert 2.5 G's on guests 3 g's is what you experience on the space shuttle if you are a thoroughly screened and flight tested astronaut. It only supports the NASA we may get to mars one day line and only a few astronauts will go..... maybe we need an attraction about Burt Rutan's SpaceshipOne and his plans for orbital versions and space stations and colonies for everyone not just government employee's?

    This really seems to be a step in the wrong direction there was plenty of room at EPCOT Center to put this somewhere else without demolishing Horizons, which could have been updated a little bit, it was simply a matter of losing a paying sponsor wasnt it Disney exec's? Shame

    "This would be a great place if we could only get rid of all these people." - Walt Disney



    "Whenever I go on a ride, I'm always thinking of what's wrong with the thing and how it can be improved."
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    "I wanted to retain my individuality. I knew if someone else got control, I would be restrained." —Walt Disney

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    "I've always been bored with just making money. I've wanted to do things; I wanted to build things, to get something going..." —Walt Disney

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  2. #2

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    Re: Horizons' Vs Mission Space: An old argument with a new perspective

    I agree. I felt Horizons was a much better attraction than Mission: Space, which I get motion sick on and avoid riding if at all possible.
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  3. #3

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    Re: Horizons' Vs Mission Space: An old argument with a new perspective

    Completely, at EPCOT I want to feel like I am in the future and feel what it might be like to be in space not puke all over space in a giant carnival ride like cuisinart!

    "This would be a great place if we could only get rid of all these people." - Walt Disney



    "Whenever I go on a ride, I'm always thinking of what's wrong with the thing and how it can be improved."
    — Walt Disney

    "I wanted to retain my individuality. I knew if someone else got control, I would be restrained." —Walt Disney

    "The fun is in always building something. You see, we never do the same thing twice around here. We're always opening up new doors." —Walt Disney

    "I've always been bored with just making money. I've wanted to do things; I wanted to build things, to get something going..." —Walt Disney

    "I can never stand still. I must explore and experiment. I am never satisfied with my work. I resent the limitations of my own imagination." —Walt Disney

    "Get a good idea and stay with it. Work it until it's done and done right." —Walt Disney

    "Freedom of speech in all forms and in its broadest sense — has become vital to the very survival of a civilized humanity." —Walt Disney




  4. #4

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    Re: Horizons' Vs Mission Space: An old argument with a new perspective

    Sorry but I read several articles (dozens) first before I put in that figure quoting Disney staff as saying it was 2.4 or 2.5 g's not 1.5 or any other number...... I just rounded to nearest .5 G so no changes will be made

    "This would be a great place if we could only get rid of all these people." - Walt Disney



    "Whenever I go on a ride, I'm always thinking of what's wrong with the thing and how it can be improved."
    — Walt Disney

    "I wanted to retain my individuality. I knew if someone else got control, I would be restrained." —Walt Disney

    "The fun is in always building something. You see, we never do the same thing twice around here. We're always opening up new doors." —Walt Disney

    "I've always been bored with just making money. I've wanted to do things; I wanted to build things, to get something going..." —Walt Disney

    "I can never stand still. I must explore and experiment. I am never satisfied with my work. I resent the limitations of my own imagination." —Walt Disney

    "Get a good idea and stay with it. Work it until it's done and done right." —Walt Disney

    "Freedom of speech in all forms and in its broadest sense — has become vital to the very survival of a civilized humanity." —Walt Disney




  5. #5

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    Re: Horizons' Vs Mission Space: An old argument with a new perspective

    Why is this going to upset some people? The fact that MS is crap and Horizons was a vision of the essense of EPCOT Center, well... it's a fact. I can't see why anyone would be upset at the obvious.

  6. #6

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    Re: Horizons' Vs Mission Space: An old argument with a new perspective

    Two whole G's?!?! Holy crap!

    http://www.popularmechanics.com/scie...11.html?page=4

    "High g-forces are common and well tolerated during many daily activities," says Smith. "Fighter pilots have high g-forces of long duration, causing pooling of blood. G-forces alone are a very poor measure of a risk of brain trauma. Pilots can endure fairly high g-forces, as much as 8 or 9 g's, for an average of 43 seconds, as opposed to the brief g-forces found on coasters," Smith says. "Pilots may pass out from these extended high g-forces, but that's not found on roller coasters, and pilots are not the victims of brain injuries as a result of those g-forces. Unconsciousness is not from brain injury, but from lack of blood flow."

    "The key to producing brain trauma is head accelerations that can be caused by g-forces," Smith says. "In an auto accident, sudden stopping creates extremely high g-forces, causing brain deformation. If the brain is deformed rapidly, various types of injuries to the brain will occur, including ruptured blood vessels. We see auto crashes well documented, but that's been extrapolated to roller coasters without any scientific link. There have been no studies done that indicate an increased risk. We aren't seeing any numbers that concern experts, especially considering that bleeds in the brain from pre-existing aneurisms is not an uncommon thing. The woman's death in the Southern California incident is typical. Aneurisms commonly rupture, even during sleep. Her death could have been a coincidence, it could have been from the excitement of the ride increasing blood pressure, or it could have been from g-forces, but that's not proven. There simply is no evidence."
    "Neurosurgeons have repeatedly affirmed that no clear mechanism has been shown to link brain injuries to normal operation of amusement park rides," says IAAPA president Clark Robinson. "The congressman's posting of unreviewed and unconfirmed cases and declaring that they are 'apparently caused' by amusement park rides is misleading and irresponsible."

    Has a causal relationship been established between amusement rides and brain injuries? "Obviously not," concludes Smith, of the University of Pennsylvania. "There is no data out there that suggests a link, only anecdotal case reports. However, it may appear that injuries are becoming more common, but that's only because of increased attention by the general press."
    The issue of g-forces on the body was explored in detail in a classic medical study published nearly a decade ago in the medical journal Spine. In their investigation, doctors and engineers found that the normal movements we go through every day subjects us to far greater gravitational pull than that felt on any amusement park ride. According to the study, you experience 10.4 g's when you plop down into a chair. Hopping off a step generates 8.1 g's. A cough is a 3.5 g experience, a sneeze generates 2.9 g's. By comparison, 4-g amusement rides are wimpy.
    "There's simply no evidence or risk of brain trauma," Smith says. "While waiting for this issue to resolve itself we highly recommend that all roller coaster riders use a proven method to reduce the risk of brain injury--make sure your seatbelts are buckled at all times when driving to an amusement park."

  7. #7

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    Re: Horizons' Vs Mission Space: An old argument with a new perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by GothicManor View Post
    it has caused the death of two people, one a little boy who met all rider requirements. Is any ride worth the life of one person? No.
    No, he didn't meet all of the rider requirements. He had an unknown heart defect that made him incredibly weak. The woman had high blood pressure. This has happened on plenty of rides before and many remain open.

    That said, my bet is on Mission: SPACE shutting its doors as soon as the HP deals ends.

  8. #8

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    Re: Horizons' Vs Mission Space: An old argument with a new perspective

    Horizons was great - but like many Disney attractions about the future - are doomed to implode if not made dynamic. Large, AA-heavy set and model attractions obviously have proven to be NOT dynamic in the Disney Universe.

    No one wants to hear about the 70s vision of the future in 2007. Forget what replaced it - the ride dated itself and would need a total rewrite or face removal. Obviously in the era that was Disney Management at the time... it got the later.

    EPCOT got slammed for its 'edu-tainment' overdose. It went too far - they tried to correct that.

    There are plenty of attractions for people that can not deal with the simulators. I never understood the hatred for building things that not EVERY person can enjoy. If I can't eat shellfish, I don't go after Disney for opening a SEAFOOD restaurant!

    The ideal of a socialist theme park where every attraction is neutered down to the greatest common denominator of what a 3yr old to a 80yr old can handle is not my idea of entertainment. Disney has always had physical experiences as part of their park, and I hope they continue to!
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  9. #9

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    Re: Horizons' Vs Mission Space: An old argument with a new perspective

    Pressler, the number of G's is not as important as the fact that M:S sustains the force for a longer amount of time.

    Flynnibus, I suppose DL circa 1957 is your "ideal of a socialist theme park" since everyone could ride everything? I think there's something to be said for designing rides that can be enjoyed regardless or height and health restrictions. Even Soarin' (glorified IMAX experience that it is) has height restrictions. I realize it's the way of the theme park industry, but it's unfortunate at the same time.

    Re: the title of this thread. Did I miss something? Where's the "new perspective"? Sounds like the same-ol', same-ol' argument against big bad M:S, and for happy-go-lucky Horizons.

  10. #10

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    Re: Horizons' Vs Mission Space: An old argument with a new perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by GothicManor View Post
    it has caused the death of two people, one a little boy who met all rider requirements.
    This statement isn't entirely accurate. Both people had pre-existing conditions. Tragic, absolutely. Cause by the ride, nope.

    I never had the chance to ride Horizons, never really have seen any pictures. But I love MS.


  11. #11

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    Re: Horizons' Vs Mission Space: An old argument with a new perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by testudo View Post
    Flynnibus, I suppose DL circa 1957 is your "ideal of a socialist theme park" since everyone could ride everything?
    You mean the skyway that you couldn't get a wheelchair on?
    Or the walk-through attractions that wouldn't be ADA accessible?
    Or the Midget Autopia that was only for kids?
    Or the full sized Autopia rides that wouldn't be suitable for those with those pregnant or back/neck or similar injuries?
    etc etc etc

    And even then Disney didn't like the formula as even 40+ years ago Disney was adding attractions that were not uniformly accessible for everyone of all shape, size, and condition.

    So what's your point? You'd like to return to 1957? Where the park was a mere shadow of what it is now.. with TL virtually empty... no mountains... and really only fantasyland and frontierland with any sort of 'ride' attractions?

    Look back at the original EPCOT as well - virtually everything was ridable by all (if you could transfer from a wheelchair) - and did the formula work? No
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  12. #12

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    Re: Horizons' Vs Mission Space: An old argument with a new perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by flynnibus View Post
    You mean the skyway that you couldn't get a wheelchair on?
    Or the walk-through attractions that wouldn't be ADA accessible?
    Or the Midget Autopia that was only for kids?
    Or the full sized Autopia rides that wouldn't be suitable for those with those pregnant or back/neck or similar injuries?
    etc etc etc

    And even then Disney didn't like the formula as even 40+ years ago Disney was adding attractions that were not uniformly accessible for everyone of all shape, size, and condition.

    So what's your point? You'd like to return to 1957? Where the park was a mere shadow of what it is now.. with TL virtually empty... no mountains... and really only fantasyland and frontierland with any sort of 'ride' attractions?

    Look back at the original EPCOT as well - virtually everything was ridable by all (if you could transfer from a wheelchair) - and did the formula work? No
    What about 1969, then? My point is, Walt added attractions that were BY AND LARGE accessible to "parents and children" alike. I'm not talking about physical disabilities that might confine a very small percentage of guests to a wheelchair. FAMILIES COULD GENERALLY RIDE THINGS TOGETHER. And didn't the Matterhorn have a very low height requirement when it opened in 1959 so that most kids could ride it as well? If that and the Skyway and Autopia are your only counter-examples, then I'd say Disney parks are today less concerned with families experiencing attractions together. But parkgoers are a lot different, too. They go to escape their families---divide up and see things separately.

  13. #13

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    Re: Horizons' Vs Mission Space: An old argument with a new perspective

    I think flynnibus makes a good point.

    Everybody always says they want things to go back the way they were. But how many of us were actually THERE at the time we want them to go back to?

    The world is a MUCH different place than it was in 1957, 67, 77, 87, even 97. Just because something worked back then, doesn't necessarily mean it's going to work now. I think wanting something nostalgic for nostalgia's sake isn't the way to run a business. And Disney realizes this.

    With each passing decade, more regulations come into place regarding what Disney must do in order to keep things accessible. Sure, they can grand-father something, but that means nothing can be changed or updated. Once they go in and add something like new track, ride vehicles, etc, you have to make the necessary ADA changes.

    All one needs to do is look at the popularity of something like Universe of Energy or the Land vs. something like Test Track, Mission: Space or Soarin' to see that too much edutainment doesn't work for the general population. I mean, I've never even seen Body Wars open.

    Personally, I'd love to ride it, but that's just me. Sure I'd love to be able to ride Horizon's or World of Motion ... but it's not going to happen. And I'm sure most people are just fine with what is there now.


  14. #14

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    Re: Horizons' Vs Mission Space: An old argument with a new perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by testudo View Post
    What about 1969, then? My point is, Walt added attractions that were BY AND LARGE accessible to "parents and children" alike. I'm not talking about physical disabilities that might confine a very small percentage of guests to a wheelchair. FAMILIES COULD GENERALLY RIDE THINGS TOGETHER. And didn't the Matterhorn have a very low height requirement when it opened in 1959 so that most kids could ride it as well? If that and the Skyway and Autopia are your only counter-examples, then I'd say Disney parks are today less concerned with families experiencing attractions together. But parkgoers are a lot different, too. They go to escape their families---divide up and see things separately.
    Just because Space Mtn didn't open until 1977, that doesn't mean it wasn't in the planning stages when Walt was alive. Because it was.

    What about the Flying Saucers? Are you going to tell me those didn't have any restrictions? I'm sure there are other things that were built that had some kind of restriction.


  15. #15

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    Re: Horizons' Vs Mission Space: An old argument with a new perspective

    The one thing that would make Mission: SPACE more of a must do for me would be some real interactivity. If everybody gets their queues the landing should go smoothly. Do something wrong and some goes wrong. The experience is far too passive, and thrives entirely off of the physical forces.

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